April 18, 2005
A separate peace | A conversation with Rep. Henry Joy, an Aroostook County Republican who advocates creating a new state in northern Maine
By Sean Donahue
To Rep. Henry Joy (R-Crystal), "two Maines" isn't just a concept describing the cultural and economic differences between southern Maine and the rural areas to its north and west. It's reality. And lately, he's been thinking more seriously about formalizing the relationship.
In January, Joy sponsored a bill that would create a task force to study the feasibility of dividing Maine into two separate states, roughly corresponding to the state's two congressional districts. Such a split may be necessary, Joy says, to undo a host of state regulations that he believes are more responsible than global economic factors for the decline of traditional industries such as paper and forestry, as well as for stifling smaller-scale economic development.
The divorce also would appease rural residents who feel besieged by the voting power of southern Maine's larger population ˆ a population that Joy says doesn't understand life in rural Maine. For example, rural residents see initiatives such as last year's failed bear-baiting ban as attempts to shut down rural Maine industries, says Joy, and hear talk of creating a national park in the north woods as a way to strip rural residents of local control over the land.
Splitting the state in two isn't a new idea. Joy, a six-term legislator first elected in 1992, proposed a similar bill in 1997. That led to the creation of a task force to study economic development issues in rural Maine, though Joy says few actions were taken as a result of its findings. So after hearing requests from frustrated constituents on the campaign trail last year, Joy says he decided to submit the bill again. Mainebiz recently asked him to explain why he thinks dividing Maine in two would help rural Maine, what that new, rural state would look like and whether there's value in just debating the issue.
What's the reason for proposing a split like this? Why do you think these counties would be better off independent?
Right at the present time, because of the structure of the Legislature with both houses being voted in on the basis of population, it gives a tremendous voting block for the more populous area of the state. And there are a lot of other states that have considered this but have never really had anyone who would take action to try to bring it about. You've got New York state, Minnesota ˆ they've definitely got a big split. Michigan has talked about it, but nobody's really done anything about it.
Mine is, of course, to do a feasibility study. The first time I put [the bill] in, basically I put it in to draw attention to the fact that standards for getting a permit for development were much different in southern Maine than they were in northern Maine. If you want to have a clear-cut down [south], the permits go through and it's all [finished] in a short period of time. You try and build anything up in our end of the woods and it's a much more involved, much longer process. So consequently, there is a big difference in the economic development capabilities of northern Maine. It's really rural Maine, not necessarily northern.
[After that bill], we had a very extensive study, went around to rural Maine and met with many people. It was a tremendous committee from all walks of the state's interests, and they came up with a good report, but nothing's ever been done on it. Studies in Augusta usually wind up in a report that's thrown on the shelf and nothing's ever done with it.
Why introduce the two-states idea again? Was there a specific inspiration?
This time, as I went around talking to people during my campaign, so many of them said, "It's time to put in your two Maines bill again." This time, they were serious about the potential of splitting up [the state]. My district is a completely rural district. In order to get the 8,000 people in my district I have 20 towns, several unorganized towns and thousands and thousands of square miles of unorganized territory.
And it's critical, because they've watched the industry filter away, filter away and filter away. Over-regulation has driven most of them out of business. It's not the world competition and global climate that's driving them out, it's that over-regulation is killing us.
What do you mean by over-regulation? Can you point to specific regulations and laws that you believe have driven businesses away?
Basically, regulations that have come about through the [Department of Environmental Protection] and, of course, up in our area, [the Land Use Regulation Commission]. LURC was supposed to be an agency to oversee and develop the unorganized territories, but by and large they're a no-development agency. We don't want to see the unorganized territories become towns and things like that, but the fact remains that if you try to do something it's a tremendous ordeal to try to get anything approved.
A few years ago I was asked to help some people get permitted to put a restaurant in a little place called Knowles Corner. It was a terrific two or two-and-a-half year battle. And finally I was able to point out to [LURC] that there had been commercial development in that area [already], so that's the only thing that managed to get [the restaurant] through. These are all the types of things that are breathing down the necks of the people in rural Maine.
So it's not just big businesses like timber and paper that you say are over-regulated, you're talking about everything down to a restaurant or other small business that's trying to start up.
Absolutely. You take anything that they want to start up and there are so many hoops to jump through that you just can't do it. We don't want to destroy the environment; we want to protect it just the same as everybody else does. But there are lots of different ways of doing it.
What would be different in a new state created out of these rural counties?
The fact is, in rural Maine they already know the repression put on them. Starting out fresh, they could work around these so they could protect the environment and have economic development too.
This is something that, with the power block centered around Portland, you can't get through. Today there's a bill in front of the Agriculture, Conservation and Forestry Committee to do a feasibility study on creating a national park. And [Rep. Glenn] Cummings [D-Portland] put a bill in a short time ago to determine the hours that the racino in Bangor can operate. So it's just one thing after another. And [according to] LURC, if you want to build a house you have to have a driveway with turns enough in it so you can't see the house from the road. You have to paint it either green or brown in certain areas ˆ these types of things. People cannot determine their own future even if they own the land.
But you're a member of the Legislature. It sounds like you don't think that state or local government should be abolished entirely. You're not proposing that people in rural Maine do whatever they want, whenever they want.
Oh no. You have to have some guidelines to go by, that's for sure. I think that with the guidelines that Maine has put in place Maine has misconstrued its motto "Dirigo," and people think they have to lead in anything and everything that's going on in the country. And it causes tremendous amounts of drawbacks on anybody who is trying to start an economic enterprise in the state.
What about maintaining infrastructure, funding schools and providing services. How could this state pay for all of that?
Everybody keeps saying, "How would that state ever support itself?" Well, right at the present time we have 10.6 million acres of unorganized territory, and there's not one penny of state-generated tax dollars that go into the upkeep of the unorganized territories.
The taxes on the unorganized territories fund themselves. They provide all of the services for schools, all the road services, right on down the line. So that wouldn't be any burden on the organized towns in those areas. They would have their tax bases and hopefully have a better rein on being able to develop some businesses.
Do you have ideas for how would this independent state would handle economic development and attract businesses?
I think that just as soon as those state lines were drawn you'd have a tremendous influx of money coming into the state anyway. For example, right now we have an awful lot of people who retire but are active people, probably not truly ready to retire, and would start a small business that would employ two, four, five, six people. But because of all the rules and regulations that are in place through Augusta they can't afford to do it.
So what happens is they go to Florida and take up residency there for six months and a day, and everything is peaches and cream for them. They don't have that [tax] drain on their retirement. I've lost a tremendous number of people who were very supportive of me in my campaigns because they've taken up residency in Florida.
Is there anything a rural state would lack, though? Do you see any benefits to having urban areas as part of the mix?
Well, I'll tell you what the urban part of the state is a benefit for: We've lost so many of our young people, and they've been able to go down there and get jobs. But that's because of the drain. When you have policies put in place over number of years that enhance this drain you finally wind up with a scant useful workforce.
It's an interesting academic exercise to talk about this idea, but are you serious about creating a separate state? Or do you see this bill as another way to draw attention to issues of regulations and local control?
I think the first time I put it in that was the intent. I tried to draw attention to the issues that really made us two states. In fact, the two states already exist. It's just a question of making them formal.
There's a lot of history that goes back to it. When the people in Maine found out they didn't have an awful lot in common with Massachusetts, they created their own state and separated. West Virginia did the same thing. A lot of states had that separation process years ago. Because we're in this modern time maybe people think there isn't a need for it, [but] there certainly is. Your lower population portions of the state get dominated and dictated to by the more populous areas.
It seems like at this point you're more serious about the idea.
Well, I am, because of the calls I've gotten from people all over the state.
If this divide between the two Maines is so large, can you think of another way to address some of the issues short of separating the states?
There is a way [these issues] could be cured. It's very simple: Go to two senators per county. You've got to realize that, right now, both houses are voted on the basis of population. It was never intended that way. The Senate is the body of the land. The House is the body of the people. It's always been that way ˆ look at our federal government. But here in Maine, we have to elect [senators] on the basis of population because some off-balance Supreme Court back in the 1800s decided that that was the way they needed to go. In other words, they basically shut down any voice that rural Maine might have.
If you had that balance between the two bodies here in Maine and also in the other states out there, you would have solved your problem. Because then rural Maine and urban Maine would have had to work together.
Is this the kind of option you'd like a task force to consider?
That's part of it. Basically, what you can do is figure out some way to give a true voice to rural Maine. I'd probably like to see them set up a way so that every piece of legislation that goes through be trial legislation for about a five-year period. You could pick a few small towns, a few medium-sized towns and a few cities and see if there was equitable treatment under that legislation. If not, at the end of five years it would be sunsetted. That way, if you have these things that have a destructive effect on rural Maine and its economy, you'd have a chance to have a balance and there would be a review. It would be an ideal way to do it. You could have a provision in there for anything like financial emergencies or things of that nature.
You said that people in your district are backing the idea of two states, but what about other members of the Legislature? Are legislators from other rural areas backing you on this?
Well, the problem is that the party in control has passed most of these laws in effect now, so there is only half-hearted support on the part of some of them. I will say that the House chair [of the State and Local Government Committee, Democrat Christopher Barstow of Gorham] has been overly considerate in his deliberations on the issue ˆ and he's from southern Maine.
He has been more than kind, and recognizes the fact that the bills I'm putting in are those that need to be discussed because they have such a tremendous impact on Maine. I [also] have my bill in to have two senators per county, but I'm not sure the will is there to go back to the Supreme Court to get that decision overturned, which is what it would take.
Whatever happens to these bills, do you see value in at least starting the discussion about the topic?
I think that one of the things southern Maine really better take a hard look at is the fact that this discussion is taking place. They basically get caught up in their lives the same way people do most every place, and not feeling the economic pinch right now they don't have to be too concerned with what's happening in the rest of the state.
I would hope this discussion would create an awareness that if we're going to exist as one state, then we better start thinking as one.
In January, Joy sponsored a bill that would create a task force to study the feasibility of dividing Maine into two separate states, roughly corresponding to the state's two congressional districts. Such a split may be necessary, Joy says, to undo a host of state regulations that he believes are more responsible than global economic factors for the decline of traditional industries such as paper and forestry, as well as for stifling smaller-scale economic development.
The divorce also would appease rural residents who feel besieged by the voting power of southern Maine's larger population ˆ a population that Joy says doesn't understand life in rural Maine. For example, rural residents see initiatives such as last year's failed bear-baiting ban as attempts to shut down rural Maine industries, says Joy, and hear talk of creating a national park in the north woods as a way to strip rural residents of local control over the land.
Splitting the state in two isn't a new idea. Joy, a six-term legislator first elected in 1992, proposed a similar bill in 1997. That led to the creation of a task force to study economic development issues in rural Maine, though Joy says few actions were taken as a result of its findings. So after hearing requests from frustrated constituents on the campaign trail last year, Joy says he decided to submit the bill again. Mainebiz recently asked him to explain why he thinks dividing Maine in two would help rural Maine, what that new, rural state would look like and whether there's value in just debating the issue.
What's the reason for proposing a split like this? Why do you think these counties would be better off independent?
Right at the present time, because of the structure of the Legislature with both houses being voted in on the basis of population, it gives a tremendous voting block for the more populous area of the state. And there are a lot of other states that have considered this but have never really had anyone who would take action to try to bring it about. You've got New York state, Minnesota ˆ they've definitely got a big split. Michigan has talked about it, but nobody's really done anything about it.
Mine is, of course, to do a feasibility study. The first time I put [the bill] in, basically I put it in to draw attention to the fact that standards for getting a permit for development were much different in southern Maine than they were in northern Maine. If you want to have a clear-cut down [south], the permits go through and it's all [finished] in a short period of time. You try and build anything up in our end of the woods and it's a much more involved, much longer process. So consequently, there is a big difference in the economic development capabilities of northern Maine. It's really rural Maine, not necessarily northern.
[After that bill], we had a very extensive study, went around to rural Maine and met with many people. It was a tremendous committee from all walks of the state's interests, and they came up with a good report, but nothing's ever been done on it. Studies in Augusta usually wind up in a report that's thrown on the shelf and nothing's ever done with it.
Why introduce the two-states idea again? Was there a specific inspiration?
This time, as I went around talking to people during my campaign, so many of them said, "It's time to put in your two Maines bill again." This time, they were serious about the potential of splitting up [the state]. My district is a completely rural district. In order to get the 8,000 people in my district I have 20 towns, several unorganized towns and thousands and thousands of square miles of unorganized territory.
And it's critical, because they've watched the industry filter away, filter away and filter away. Over-regulation has driven most of them out of business. It's not the world competition and global climate that's driving them out, it's that over-regulation is killing us.
What do you mean by over-regulation? Can you point to specific regulations and laws that you believe have driven businesses away?
Basically, regulations that have come about through the [Department of Environmental Protection] and, of course, up in our area, [the Land Use Regulation Commission]. LURC was supposed to be an agency to oversee and develop the unorganized territories, but by and large they're a no-development agency. We don't want to see the unorganized territories become towns and things like that, but the fact remains that if you try to do something it's a tremendous ordeal to try to get anything approved.
A few years ago I was asked to help some people get permitted to put a restaurant in a little place called Knowles Corner. It was a terrific two or two-and-a-half year battle. And finally I was able to point out to [LURC] that there had been commercial development in that area [already], so that's the only thing that managed to get [the restaurant] through. These are all the types of things that are breathing down the necks of the people in rural Maine.
So it's not just big businesses like timber and paper that you say are over-regulated, you're talking about everything down to a restaurant or other small business that's trying to start up.
Absolutely. You take anything that they want to start up and there are so many hoops to jump through that you just can't do it. We don't want to destroy the environment; we want to protect it just the same as everybody else does. But there are lots of different ways of doing it.
What would be different in a new state created out of these rural counties?
The fact is, in rural Maine they already know the repression put on them. Starting out fresh, they could work around these so they could protect the environment and have economic development too.
This is something that, with the power block centered around Portland, you can't get through. Today there's a bill in front of the Agriculture, Conservation and Forestry Committee to do a feasibility study on creating a national park. And [Rep. Glenn] Cummings [D-Portland] put a bill in a short time ago to determine the hours that the racino in Bangor can operate. So it's just one thing after another. And [according to] LURC, if you want to build a house you have to have a driveway with turns enough in it so you can't see the house from the road. You have to paint it either green or brown in certain areas ˆ these types of things. People cannot determine their own future even if they own the land.
But you're a member of the Legislature. It sounds like you don't think that state or local government should be abolished entirely. You're not proposing that people in rural Maine do whatever they want, whenever they want.
Oh no. You have to have some guidelines to go by, that's for sure. I think that with the guidelines that Maine has put in place Maine has misconstrued its motto "Dirigo," and people think they have to lead in anything and everything that's going on in the country. And it causes tremendous amounts of drawbacks on anybody who is trying to start an economic enterprise in the state.
What about maintaining infrastructure, funding schools and providing services. How could this state pay for all of that?
Everybody keeps saying, "How would that state ever support itself?" Well, right at the present time we have 10.6 million acres of unorganized territory, and there's not one penny of state-generated tax dollars that go into the upkeep of the unorganized territories.
The taxes on the unorganized territories fund themselves. They provide all of the services for schools, all the road services, right on down the line. So that wouldn't be any burden on the organized towns in those areas. They would have their tax bases and hopefully have a better rein on being able to develop some businesses.
Do you have ideas for how would this independent state would handle economic development and attract businesses?
I think that just as soon as those state lines were drawn you'd have a tremendous influx of money coming into the state anyway. For example, right now we have an awful lot of people who retire but are active people, probably not truly ready to retire, and would start a small business that would employ two, four, five, six people. But because of all the rules and regulations that are in place through Augusta they can't afford to do it.
So what happens is they go to Florida and take up residency there for six months and a day, and everything is peaches and cream for them. They don't have that [tax] drain on their retirement. I've lost a tremendous number of people who were very supportive of me in my campaigns because they've taken up residency in Florida.
Is there anything a rural state would lack, though? Do you see any benefits to having urban areas as part of the mix?
Well, I'll tell you what the urban part of the state is a benefit for: We've lost so many of our young people, and they've been able to go down there and get jobs. But that's because of the drain. When you have policies put in place over number of years that enhance this drain you finally wind up with a scant useful workforce.
It's an interesting academic exercise to talk about this idea, but are you serious about creating a separate state? Or do you see this bill as another way to draw attention to issues of regulations and local control?
I think the first time I put it in that was the intent. I tried to draw attention to the issues that really made us two states. In fact, the two states already exist. It's just a question of making them formal.
There's a lot of history that goes back to it. When the people in Maine found out they didn't have an awful lot in common with Massachusetts, they created their own state and separated. West Virginia did the same thing. A lot of states had that separation process years ago. Because we're in this modern time maybe people think there isn't a need for it, [but] there certainly is. Your lower population portions of the state get dominated and dictated to by the more populous areas.
It seems like at this point you're more serious about the idea.
Well, I am, because of the calls I've gotten from people all over the state.
If this divide between the two Maines is so large, can you think of another way to address some of the issues short of separating the states?
There is a way [these issues] could be cured. It's very simple: Go to two senators per county. You've got to realize that, right now, both houses are voted on the basis of population. It was never intended that way. The Senate is the body of the land. The House is the body of the people. It's always been that way ˆ look at our federal government. But here in Maine, we have to elect [senators] on the basis of population because some off-balance Supreme Court back in the 1800s decided that that was the way they needed to go. In other words, they basically shut down any voice that rural Maine might have.
If you had that balance between the two bodies here in Maine and also in the other states out there, you would have solved your problem. Because then rural Maine and urban Maine would have had to work together.
Is this the kind of option you'd like a task force to consider?
That's part of it. Basically, what you can do is figure out some way to give a true voice to rural Maine. I'd probably like to see them set up a way so that every piece of legislation that goes through be trial legislation for about a five-year period. You could pick a few small towns, a few medium-sized towns and a few cities and see if there was equitable treatment under that legislation. If not, at the end of five years it would be sunsetted. That way, if you have these things that have a destructive effect on rural Maine and its economy, you'd have a chance to have a balance and there would be a review. It would be an ideal way to do it. You could have a provision in there for anything like financial emergencies or things of that nature.
You said that people in your district are backing the idea of two states, but what about other members of the Legislature? Are legislators from other rural areas backing you on this?
Well, the problem is that the party in control has passed most of these laws in effect now, so there is only half-hearted support on the part of some of them. I will say that the House chair [of the State and Local Government Committee, Democrat Christopher Barstow of Gorham] has been overly considerate in his deliberations on the issue ˆ and he's from southern Maine.
He has been more than kind, and recognizes the fact that the bills I'm putting in are those that need to be discussed because they have such a tremendous impact on Maine. I [also] have my bill in to have two senators per county, but I'm not sure the will is there to go back to the Supreme Court to get that decision overturned, which is what it would take.
Whatever happens to these bills, do you see value in at least starting the discussion about the topic?
I think that one of the things southern Maine really better take a hard look at is the fact that this discussion is taking place. They basically get caught up in their lives the same way people do most every place, and not feeling the economic pinch right now they don't have to be too concerned with what's happening in the rest of the state.
I would hope this discussion would create an awareness that if we're going to exist as one state, then we better start thinking as one.
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