November 8, 2004
'It's all about money' | The mayors of Lewiston and Auburn discuss their new plan to merge services in the Twin Cities
By Michaela Cavallaro
The idea of working together to help the cities of Lewiston and Auburn operate more efficiently occurred to brothers Lionel and Normand Guay long before they were in a position to do anything about it. Then, in 2002, Normand Guay, a long-time Auburn policeman, became mayor of that city. A year later, Lionel Guay was elected mayor of Lewiston. Both brothers' inaugural addresses revolved around the importance of finding ways in which Lewiston and Auburn ˆ which they're fond of describing as "two cities, one community" ˆ might save money by combining some functions.
Then, in late September, the mayors announced the creation of a special commission that would analyze each of the cities' departments, with the end goal of deciding once and for all whether there are efficiencies to be gained by merging them. The Guays caused a minor controversy at the time by refusing to name the members of the Lewiston & Auburn Commission on Joint Services, saying they hadn't received firm commitments from all 10 of their appointees. When, in mid-October, they released the commissioners' names, it read a bit like a who's who of the Twin Cities, including, among others, John Emerson of Emerson Chevrolet, K.C. Geiger, formerly of Geiger, and Maine Supreme Judicial Court Judge Robert Clifford. The commissioners received their charge from the mayors in late October.
A week earlier, Normand and Lionel Guay sat down with Mainebiz to discuss their goals for the commission. Following is an edited transcript of that conversation.
Mainebiz: How did the idea for the joint commission come up?
Lionel Guay: Norm and I think this is something that needs to be seriously looked at because there are certain areas where money can be saved. There is a survey that was done, L-A Together, that came out in 1996. That survey ˆ all they looked at was the surface. They never went into details.
What my brother Norm and I are doing with this commission now is that we're going to be charging them to look at each and every department. They need to look at the costs; some departments may not have large cost savings, but they may be able to increase the efficiency. And they need to look at all of this from the administrative [level] down to the smallest department at City Hall.
Normand Guay: We've asked them to come back [to a joint city council meeting] with definitive suggestions as to if [combining services] works or doesn't work. The bottom line is their recommendations are going to be policy decisions ˆ each city council is going to have to endorse it either up or down. If it appears that there's going to be cost savings, if it appears that services are going to be improved, if we can access more federal grants because of the size of the [new] department, I would be hard pressed to think that any city council is going to vote against it. But it's also a very emotional issue.
Is there any precedent for this in the cities? Are there areas where the cities are already working together?
Normand: Oh, yes. We have more collaborative efforts going than any other two communities in the state.
Lionel: We have L-A Airport, Lewiston-Auburn Railroad, L/A Arts, Lewiston-Auburn Economic Growth Councilˆ
Normand: ˆ Lewiston-Auburn Waste Management. We've got Lake Auburn watershed. But the biggest one is 911. We already have a joint 911 [center] that takes care of all our dispatching for public safety. It's very high tech. We have so many agreements. Some of them are the result of what happened with L-A Together back in 1995-1996.
What were the conclusions that L-A Together came to? Were there any big-picture ideas that are forming the basis for what you're doing now?
Lionel: They never came back with numbers. They never said, if you join the fire departments, you will save X. They just said it could probably work if you do it. But what this commission is going to do is to look at actual numbers ˆ what is it going to save, and how can they save this money? Is it going to be done through attrition?
The other thing that my brother Normand and I want to make sure people understand is that we are not out to lay anybody off from their jobs. We are going to recommend to the commission that this be done through attrition.
Normand: Even if the councils approve their recommendation, there's going to be a one-year, two-year, three-year transition. And during that time when they've identified where cuts can be made, when people leave they can rearrange.
Lionel: The other side is that you have unions to deal with. I'm sure that they're not going to approve of it without knowing what's going to happen. And the thing is, some of these unions are different for each city.
Normand: The bottom line is Lionel and I really bring it down to the simplest thing: It's all about money. It's about saving money for the taxpayers and doing things differently. At the same time, though, the way I look at it, the unions are probably a little reluctant, probably a little afraid, but it's really going to save jobs in the long run.
What were you looking for as you were putting the commission together?
Normand: We were looking for the best qualified people. Not to say that there aren't other people in the community that would be just as qualified, but we were looking for the best qualified people ˆ independent thinkers, people that would take this and it would not become political. This is a non-political board. After we charge them, Lionel and I don't expect to see these peopleˆ
Lionel: ˆ unless they request our presence.
Did the governor's emphasis on regionalization affect your thoughts about this process?
Lionel: No. The governor [already] uses Lewiston-Auburn as an example of collaboration. The cities of Lewiston and Auburn have been doing this for a long time; this is not something that started last year.
Normand: In all honesty, my brother and I were brought up when there was some collaboration, but the communities were really two separate communities. Over the last 30 years, a great deal of things have happened that have brought us much closer together. As far as doing things together, we often tell the governor that we wrote the book on collaboration. He loves to tell us, "I wish Bangor and Brewer could work together."
Lionel: That's what he told us last time we talked to him.
Normand: And we have a selfish reason to do it, because the more we collaborate, the more that we're going to be talked about. The more we're talked about, the more people are going to start looking at this community, these two cities, as a place to do business.
There was an editorial in the Sun Journal that suggested that you two are perhaps better able to shareˆ
Normand: ˆ I don't know if you know our background, but we lost our dad when we were very young. Our mom brought us up; she never remarried. My brother was nine when my dad died and I was five. She always taught us that we needed to work together. If you worked against each other, you both lost. If you worked together, you both won.
Lionel: And we're used to sharing ˆ we grew up sharing the same bedroom for many, many years.
What has been the reaction to your proposal? You mentioned that some folks have called and said they want to participate. What about beyond that?
Lionel: I've had two people make appointments to come in to talk to me, especially on that issue. They think it's time to do this. One of them advocated joining the cities, and I tried to explain to them it's not going to be easy to join the services, never mind the cities. But I would say that 100% of the people I've talked to, whether they're staff, city employees or citizens, favor this.
Normand: We don't fool ourselves. We know there are a lot of people who are very parochial out there. And the bottom line is that I truly believe they're in the minority. I truly believe the majority of the people are very progressive in this community and see this is a possibility to make this a better place to live.
And our initiative I think is going to work ˆ because we're going to find out whether we can do it or not. My nephew, Lionel's son, is a firefighter, so I'll use the fire department as an example. Lewiston has two aerial fire trucks. We have one. That's three. Because of today's building codes, there's fewer and fewer fires. So could the cities have two fire trucks as opposed to three? If that was the case, then maybe the new one we bought in Auburn, and we paid almost $800,000 ˆ we wouldn't have had to buy it. And the cities, combined, would have saved $400,000 [each].
Lionel: All these issues need to be studied.
Normand: For municipalities ˆ just like the state or any government entity ˆ the biggest cost is manpower, our employees. In Auburn, 85% of our cost is our employees, and in Lewiston I'm sure it's the same. We're both committed to treating our employees fairly. But the cost of health care, the cost of benefits, is increasing at a far faster rate than salaries ˆ but it's part of what the city's commitment is. If we find a way to eliminate 10 positions, but we do it through attrition, then it's going to save a lot of money.
The irony of the whole thing is, if the commission comes back and their recommendations are favorable and the city council has the political courage to go ahead with those recommendations and they don't become parochial on us ˆ by the time they're implemented, Lionel and I won't be mayor. But if we can start the ball rolling, the only way anybody's going to be able to stop it is if it falls on its own.
Then, in late September, the mayors announced the creation of a special commission that would analyze each of the cities' departments, with the end goal of deciding once and for all whether there are efficiencies to be gained by merging them. The Guays caused a minor controversy at the time by refusing to name the members of the Lewiston & Auburn Commission on Joint Services, saying they hadn't received firm commitments from all 10 of their appointees. When, in mid-October, they released the commissioners' names, it read a bit like a who's who of the Twin Cities, including, among others, John Emerson of Emerson Chevrolet, K.C. Geiger, formerly of Geiger, and Maine Supreme Judicial Court Judge Robert Clifford. The commissioners received their charge from the mayors in late October.
A week earlier, Normand and Lionel Guay sat down with Mainebiz to discuss their goals for the commission. Following is an edited transcript of that conversation.
Mainebiz: How did the idea for the joint commission come up?
Lionel Guay: Norm and I think this is something that needs to be seriously looked at because there are certain areas where money can be saved. There is a survey that was done, L-A Together, that came out in 1996. That survey ˆ all they looked at was the surface. They never went into details.
What my brother Norm and I are doing with this commission now is that we're going to be charging them to look at each and every department. They need to look at the costs; some departments may not have large cost savings, but they may be able to increase the efficiency. And they need to look at all of this from the administrative [level] down to the smallest department at City Hall.
Normand Guay: We've asked them to come back [to a joint city council meeting] with definitive suggestions as to if [combining services] works or doesn't work. The bottom line is their recommendations are going to be policy decisions ˆ each city council is going to have to endorse it either up or down. If it appears that there's going to be cost savings, if it appears that services are going to be improved, if we can access more federal grants because of the size of the [new] department, I would be hard pressed to think that any city council is going to vote against it. But it's also a very emotional issue.
Is there any precedent for this in the cities? Are there areas where the cities are already working together?
Normand: Oh, yes. We have more collaborative efforts going than any other two communities in the state.
Lionel: We have L-A Airport, Lewiston-Auburn Railroad, L/A Arts, Lewiston-Auburn Economic Growth Councilˆ
Normand: ˆ Lewiston-Auburn Waste Management. We've got Lake Auburn watershed. But the biggest one is 911. We already have a joint 911 [center] that takes care of all our dispatching for public safety. It's very high tech. We have so many agreements. Some of them are the result of what happened with L-A Together back in 1995-1996.
What were the conclusions that L-A Together came to? Were there any big-picture ideas that are forming the basis for what you're doing now?
Lionel: They never came back with numbers. They never said, if you join the fire departments, you will save X. They just said it could probably work if you do it. But what this commission is going to do is to look at actual numbers ˆ what is it going to save, and how can they save this money? Is it going to be done through attrition?
The other thing that my brother Normand and I want to make sure people understand is that we are not out to lay anybody off from their jobs. We are going to recommend to the commission that this be done through attrition.
Normand: Even if the councils approve their recommendation, there's going to be a one-year, two-year, three-year transition. And during that time when they've identified where cuts can be made, when people leave they can rearrange.
Lionel: The other side is that you have unions to deal with. I'm sure that they're not going to approve of it without knowing what's going to happen. And the thing is, some of these unions are different for each city.
Normand: The bottom line is Lionel and I really bring it down to the simplest thing: It's all about money. It's about saving money for the taxpayers and doing things differently. At the same time, though, the way I look at it, the unions are probably a little reluctant, probably a little afraid, but it's really going to save jobs in the long run.
What were you looking for as you were putting the commission together?
Normand: We were looking for the best qualified people. Not to say that there aren't other people in the community that would be just as qualified, but we were looking for the best qualified people ˆ independent thinkers, people that would take this and it would not become political. This is a non-political board. After we charge them, Lionel and I don't expect to see these peopleˆ
Lionel: ˆ unless they request our presence.
Did the governor's emphasis on regionalization affect your thoughts about this process?
Lionel: No. The governor [already] uses Lewiston-Auburn as an example of collaboration. The cities of Lewiston and Auburn have been doing this for a long time; this is not something that started last year.
Normand: In all honesty, my brother and I were brought up when there was some collaboration, but the communities were really two separate communities. Over the last 30 years, a great deal of things have happened that have brought us much closer together. As far as doing things together, we often tell the governor that we wrote the book on collaboration. He loves to tell us, "I wish Bangor and Brewer could work together."
Lionel: That's what he told us last time we talked to him.
Normand: And we have a selfish reason to do it, because the more we collaborate, the more that we're going to be talked about. The more we're talked about, the more people are going to start looking at this community, these two cities, as a place to do business.
There was an editorial in the Sun Journal that suggested that you two are perhaps better able to shareˆ
Normand: ˆ I don't know if you know our background, but we lost our dad when we were very young. Our mom brought us up; she never remarried. My brother was nine when my dad died and I was five. She always taught us that we needed to work together. If you worked against each other, you both lost. If you worked together, you both won.
Lionel: And we're used to sharing ˆ we grew up sharing the same bedroom for many, many years.
What has been the reaction to your proposal? You mentioned that some folks have called and said they want to participate. What about beyond that?
Lionel: I've had two people make appointments to come in to talk to me, especially on that issue. They think it's time to do this. One of them advocated joining the cities, and I tried to explain to them it's not going to be easy to join the services, never mind the cities. But I would say that 100% of the people I've talked to, whether they're staff, city employees or citizens, favor this.
Normand: We don't fool ourselves. We know there are a lot of people who are very parochial out there. And the bottom line is that I truly believe they're in the minority. I truly believe the majority of the people are very progressive in this community and see this is a possibility to make this a better place to live.
And our initiative I think is going to work ˆ because we're going to find out whether we can do it or not. My nephew, Lionel's son, is a firefighter, so I'll use the fire department as an example. Lewiston has two aerial fire trucks. We have one. That's three. Because of today's building codes, there's fewer and fewer fires. So could the cities have two fire trucks as opposed to three? If that was the case, then maybe the new one we bought in Auburn, and we paid almost $800,000 ˆ we wouldn't have had to buy it. And the cities, combined, would have saved $400,000 [each].
Lionel: All these issues need to be studied.
Normand: For municipalities ˆ just like the state or any government entity ˆ the biggest cost is manpower, our employees. In Auburn, 85% of our cost is our employees, and in Lewiston I'm sure it's the same. We're both committed to treating our employees fairly. But the cost of health care, the cost of benefits, is increasing at a far faster rate than salaries ˆ but it's part of what the city's commitment is. If we find a way to eliminate 10 positions, but we do it through attrition, then it's going to save a lot of money.
The irony of the whole thing is, if the commission comes back and their recommendations are favorable and the city council has the political courage to go ahead with those recommendations and they don't become parochial on us ˆ by the time they're implemented, Lionel and I won't be mayor. But if we can start the ball rolling, the only way anybody's going to be able to stop it is if it falls on its own.
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